carbon fiber

[Ken PlattnerParticipant]

aircraftspruce.com also has peel ply. Yep, they are indeed slooooow.

Ken.

[Ken PlattnerParticipant]

Scott, one other thing. If you do order the peel ply, make sure they ship it on a roll, rather than folded up. If they ship it folded, you will never get the creases out and it’s much harder to use.

Ken.

[Warren B. MusselmanModerator]

I live by peel-ply. I almost NEVER use mylar. I would rather have the textured, bondable surface and minimal epoxy that results from using peel-ply than a mirror smooth (hard to achieve) mylar surface. I fill the texture with epoxy and silica or glass micro-balloons. You get a far better epoxy/fabric ratio than you do using mylar EVERY time. Forget mylar and use peel-ply and breather fabric.

Warren

[SCOTT EVANS]

I live by peel-ply. I almost NEVER use mylar. I would rather have the textured, bondable surface and minimal epoxy that results from using peel-ply than a mirror smooth (hard to achieve) mylar surface. I fill the texture with epoxy and silica or glass micro-balloons. You get a far better epoxy/fabric ratio than you do using mylar EVERY time. Forget mylar and use peel-ply and breather fabric.

Warren

Ok
So I should give Warren and Conway some gloves, and step back!
To mylar or not to mylar.

[Conway StevensParticipant]

I live by peel-ply. I almost NEVER use mylar. I would rather have the textured, bondable surface and minimal epoxy that results from using peel-ply than a mirror smooth (hard to achieve) mylar surface. I fill the texture with epoxy and silica or glass micro-balloons. You get a far better epoxy/fabric ratio than you do using mylar EVERY time. Forget mylar and use peel-ply and breather fabric.

Warren

Warren your speaking of personal preference not what has been tested as better or stronger. Its all in what someone wants. Really how many people use either method. VERY FEW. Most just wrap it in glass and epoxy and then use bondo or a light filler to cover it or dont even bother covering it. its a minority that use the methods we use. The time, the hassle, and the expense. The majority just wants to put some glass and epoxy on it without the vacuum baging or compression wrapping. They fly flight after flight get shipped and stored and continue to live on. Now I am not claiming either to be better. But in what we really doing with these methods do you think it makes that much difference? I doubt it truthfully. Otherwise what I mentioned above about the majority wouldnt be the case.. Know what I mean?

Scotte, Use whatever makes you feel comfortable. Me I like a stronger tube without all the effort of sanding and prep work. Are the tubes ive done strong enough. Of course they are. Ive pushed them quite hard in the past. Do I use them today. No. Im a full composites guy. I use either FWFG or CWFG or Carbon Fiber products. No mess, light weight and stronger then any laminated phenolic or cardboard tubes are. They are a superior product comparatively. but the do cost a bit more. But you do get what you pay for in my opinion.

[Warren B. MusselmanModerator]

I’ll agree, not many do what we do and most end up with a layer or two of glass soaked with about 5 times the necessary amount of epoxy or glass fabric poorly bonded to the tube because they didn’t use enough epoxy. To each their own.

To my way of thinking, in 99% of cases if you’re thinking of going to go to the enormous effort of glassing a phenolic tube, you’re better off buying a hunk of filament wound or convolute wound glass tubing and throwing the phenolic away. You’ll save yourself about a zillion hours of labor since for 90% of the reasons you’d want that strength, you don’t need to worry about the weight of the commercial product. Spending the money is worth it compared to the effort, pain and goo that result from doing your own tubes – precisely the reason I said that the Giant Leap tubes are great for most folks and most projects

HOWEVER, if I do have a need for maximum strength at minimum weight then I’m going to roll my own tube. If so, I sure won’t be glassing over a phenolic tube to acheive it. The proper way is to wind the fabric over mylar on a machined and polished aluminum mandrel one layer at a time, vacuum bagging each layer and then moving on to the next layer until you’ve built it up to the desired wall thickness. These tubes are an enormous amount of effort to make and I guarantee you they will far exceed the strength of any equivalent-sized tube at far less weight besides. On these, I would certainly consider doing the top layer with just mylar to achieve a better finish. Other than a finish layer though, peel-ply is pretty much a necessity or else you won’t get enough of a bond between the layers.

I’ve done enough glass and carbon over phenolic tubes to realize that it’s all a waste of time until you get into 6″ and above where the cost of factory-made FWFG or CWFG gets so high that the labor involved isn’t such an onerous cost. After the UprOar project, I vowed I won’t do it again even for a large project as there were probably a couple hundred man-hours involved in laying out, cutting, wrapping and v-bagging 3-4 layers of glass around 19′ of 7.5″ phenolic tubing and that’s not even counting the filling, sanding and finishing. Glassing tubes (or carbon) is messy, time-consuming, and tough to do well by whatever method you choose. I’d rather buy the tubing and let someone else deal with the mess and trouble.

Warren

[Anonymous]

Rocketry is all about choices; phenolic or glass? Motor ejection vs. electronics? Aerotech vs. Cesaroni? Hybrids vs. AP? Rails vs. lugs? Lugs vs. towers? Painted or primed? Three fins or four? Conical vs. ogive???? Missile Works vs. PerfectFlite? Davey’s vs. Oxral? G10 vs. Plywood? BP vs. Pyrodex? Single use vs. reloads?

Howzabout West Systems vs. AeroPoxy? 5-minute epoxy vs. 30 minute? Everyready vs. Coppertop? Drogue vs. Drougeless? Altitude vs. sport flying? N. site vs. Atlas? BALLS or Oktoberfest? Blackjack vs. White lightning? One stage or two? Clusters or not? C-Slots vs. Bates? Medusa vs. conventional nozzle? Custom avatar vs. one from the list? Dr. Rocket vs. Monster? Plugged closures vs. conventional? Should I mount a switch or just twist the wires?

Should I use 1200 grit vs. stopping at 220? Wet sand vs. dry sanding? Bondo vs. Aeropoxy light? Apogee deploy or dual deploy? Using nylon screws for shear pins vs. polystyerene? vent holes or not? Pistons or Nomex? Nomex or dog barf? ROL vs. Rocketry Planet? Screws vs. rivets?

But wait — Convolute or filament wound? Barrowman vs. Rocksim? Rocksim 4.0 vs. upgrading? Snap rings vs. threaded? EX vs. commercial? Ground test or wing it? NAR vs. Tripoli? Beveled edges vs. rounded? One altimeter vs. two? Accelerometers vs. baro? Mylar vs. Peel-ply?

As I’ve said in the past — “Dance with who brung ‘ya”. Do what is comfy for you. Let there be peace, rocketry brothers 😉

[Conway StevensParticipant]

Rocketry is all about choices; phenolic or glass? Motor ejection vs. electronics? Aerotech vs. Cesaroni? Hybrids vs. AP? Rails vs. lugs? Lugs vs. towers? Painted or primed? Three fins or four? Conical vs. ogive???? Missile Works vs. PerfectFlite? Davey’s vs. Oxral? G10 vs. Plywood? BP vs. Pyrodex?

Howzabout West Systems vs. AeroPoxy? 5-minute epoxy vs. 30 minute? Everyready vs. Coppertop? Drogue vs. Drougeless? Altitude vs. sport flying? N. site vs. Atlas? BALLS or Oktoberfest? Blackjack vs. White lightning? One stage or two? Clusters or not? C-Slots vs. Bates? Medusa vs. conventional nozzle? Custom avatar vs. one from the list? Dr. Rocket vs. Monster? Plugged closures vs. conventional?

Should I use 1200 grit vs. stopping at 220? Wet sand vs. dry sanding? Bondo vs. Aeropoxy light? Apogee deploy or dual deploy? Using nylon screws for shear pins vs. polystyerene? vent holes or not? Pistons or Nomex? Nomex or dog barf? ROL vs. Rocketry Planet? Screws vs. rivets?

But wait — Convolute or filament wound? Barrowman vs. Rocksim? Rocksim 4.0 vs. upgrading? Snap rings vs. threaded? EX vs. commercial? Ground test or wing it? NAR vs. Tripoli? Beveled edges vs. rounded? One altimeter vs. two? Accelerometers vs. baro? Mylar vs. Peel-ply?

As I’ve said in the past — “Dance with who brung ‘ya”. Do what is comfy for you 😉

Exactly!!! thanks JW for the additional input. Exactly what I was trying to say in my last post if it didnt come out right. It is and should be what you want it to be. There are lots of ways to do things and lots of people with the experience as well to share. But do what you feel is right for you. Most of all HAVE FUN!!!!!! 😉

[SCOTT EVANS]

I live by peel-ply. I almost NEVER use mylar. I would rather have the textured, bondable surface and minimal epoxy that results from using peel-ply than a mirror smooth (hard to achieve) mylar surface. I fill the texture with epoxy and silica or glass micro-balloons. You get a far better epoxy/fabric ratio than you do using mylar EVERY time. Forget mylar and use peel-ply and breather fabric.

Warren

Warren your speaking of personal preference not what has been tested as better or stronger. Its all in what someone wants. Really how many people use either method. VERY FEW. Most just wrap it in glass and epoxy and then use bondo or a light filler to cover it or dont even bother covering it. its a minority that use the methods we use. The time, the hassle, and the expense. The majority just wants to put some glass and epoxy on it without the vacuum baging or compression wrapping. They fly flight after flight get shipped and stored and continue to live on. Now I am not claiming either to be better. But in what we really doing with these methods do you think it makes that much difference? I doubt it truthfully. Otherwise what I mentioned above about the majority wouldnt be the case.. Know what I mean?

Scotte, Use whatever makes you feel comfortable. Me I like a stronger tube without all the effort of sanding and prep work. Are the tubes ive done strong enough. Of course they are. Ive pushed them quite hard in the past. Do I use them today. No. Im a full composites guy. I use either FWFG or CWFG or Carbon Fiber products. No mess, light weight and stronger then any laminated phenolic or cardboard tubes are. They are a superior product comparatively. but the do cost a bit more. But you do get what you pay for in my opinion.

You know guys ummmm Im building a 3″ rocket maximum “K” MOTER!

[SCOTT EVANS]

I live by peel-ply. I almost NEVER use mylar. I would rather have the textured, bondable surface and minimal epoxy that results from using peel-ply than a mirror smooth (hard to achieve) mylar surface. I fill the texture with epoxy and silica or glass micro-balloons. You get a far better epoxy/fabric ratio than you do using mylar EVERY time. Forget mylar and use peel-ply and breather fabric.

Warren

Warren your speaking of personal preference not what has been tested as better or stronger. Its all in what someone wants. Really how many people use either method. VERY FEW. Most just wrap it in glass and epoxy and then use bondo or a light filler to cover it or dont even bother covering it. its a minority that use the methods we use. The time, the hassle, and the expense. The majority just wants to put some glass and epoxy on it without the vacuum baging or compression wrapping. They fly flight after flight get shipped and stored and continue to live on. Now I am not claiming either to be better. But in what we really doing with these methods do you think it makes that much difference? I doubt it truthfully. Otherwise what I mentioned above about the majority wouldnt be the case.. Know what I mean?

Scotte, Use whatever makes you feel comfortable. Me I like a stronger tube without all the effort of sanding and prep work. Are the tubes ive done strong enough. Of course they are. Ive pushed them quite hard in the past. Do I use them today. No. Im a full composites guy. I use either FWFG or CWFG or Carbon Fiber products. No mess, light weight and stronger then any laminated phenolic or cardboard tubes are. They are a superior product comparatively. but the do cost a bit more. But you do get what you pay for in my opinion.

3″ ROCKRT BOYS?!!!!

[Author]

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