High altitude

[AdrianParticipant]

Adrian,
so you leave any air space in there? When I run out of the little plastic cups I have, I want to try this method.

I didn’t think Pyrodex burned fast enough?????

When Pyrodex is sufficiently contained, it pops with a nice, clean CRACK! and provides just as much oomph as BP. But since the how much power it provides depends on the containment, you need a really consistent, repeatable way to do it. The cardboard tubes potted with epoxy at each end works for me.

In the potted charges, air space is minimized (no air required to burn Pyrodex, BP or AP)

[muleParticipant]

Funny, it took me longer to type this that Adrian’s, his post wasn’t there when I started mine…. I concur with him….

The pyrodex is a slower burning powder, by quite a bit @ atmospheric pressure. Under high chamber pressures it’s great with BP weapons. Take some pyro and 4F BP out, make a 12″ string of each and light them. 😈

Keep in mind there will be very little pressure acting on the surgical tubing to cause an increased burn rate. You would probably have to add in a catalyst to the pyro to get the burn rate up. Or stick it in a mortar/pestle and go to town on it.

Think about it this way. You wouldn’t put 150 grains of 4F BP in a magnum rifle that is made for 150 grains of pyrodex would you? I sure wouldn’t want to be anywhere near the you if you did, the shrapnel would be like a pineapple grenade… 😯

[Warren B. MusselmanModerator]

I’m not a pyrodex user, nor likely to be. I’ll probably go to CO2-based systems for serious altitude shots if I head that way.

The idea of the surgical tubing is to contain the burning BP until it burns completely in the lower pressure environment at altitude. I’ve heard that BP charges reliably go off well above 25K when contained in surgical tubing.

Warren

[AdrianParticipant]

Keep in mind there will be very little pressure acting on the surgical tubing to cause an increased burn rate. You would probably have to add in a catalyst to the pyro to get the burn rate up. Or stick it in a mortar/pestle and go to town on it.

I did an experiment with pyrodex in a surgical tube, and it went off with a nice clean crack and appeared to burn completely. I agree the tubing doesn’t provide much pressure, so my guess is that the tubing works by keeping all the granules bouncing around inside the flame as the tubing expands.

[Warren B. MusselmanModerator]

Exactly Adrian. Best explanation I’ve heard is the surgical tubing keeps the burning and unburned BP in contact longer allowing for more complete combustion.

Warren

[Ken PlattnerParticipant]

Here is good link on the subject:

http://www.alaska.net/~aleckson/rockets/smokless.html

Ken.

[John A. WilkeParticipant]

Surgical tubing works waaaaaaaaay higher than 25K. The Q project had surgical tubing charges that provided separation at over 59,000′. Unfortunately, the rocket was coming out of mach right about that time (doh!!). I have seen several clean recoveries from higher than that using surgical tubing. CO2 is probably the wiser way to go, but it is expensive and it takes up a LOT more space than I like to allot for charges. I don’t think I’ll ever get anything high enough to go that route.

Regarding Pyrodex – contained, it works very well… though the amount used would be very different vs. FFFF. I often hunt with a muzzleloader rifle, most (all?) of those firearms use Pyrodex. The ignition is quick, thorough, and energetic. Again, confinement is the key.

[muleParticipant]

Good point Adrian.

Ken, I only got to skim the link, but I hadn’t realized just how much less fire there is with pyrodex, good to know as well. I have a ton of 3F at home AND some other stuff. I may go play with some…. The Pyro in me is coming out. Scott, we need to do some playing, I mean testing when I get back from KY…. 😈

[John A. WilkeParticipant]

Curiousity got the best of me, so I looked up my muzzleloader info. I use 75 grains of 777 Pyrodex in my gun. “777” is considered to be the premium material as it has less smoke, less fouling, etc. It is a Pyrodex product. 75 grains = 4.85 grams.

The bullets I use are typically weigh 225-255 grains. That is ~15-16 grams. The bore of the rifle is 0.54″ (.54 caliber).

The bullet leaves the muzzle at something like 2,000 fps. This works due to confinement and the fact that the bore is both long and narrow. Bottom line is that Pyrodex has lots of power.

4.85 grams of FFFF would cause the firearm to explode. It would be horrific.

BTW, that bullet / pyrodex combination will quickly dispatch an elk, even at 50 yards. DO NOT underestimate this stuff. Be careful with all the above.

[SCOTT EVANS]

Curiousity got the best of me, so I looked up my muzzleloader info. I use 75 grains of 777 Pyrodex in my gun. “777” is considered to be the premium material as it has less smoke, less fouling, etc. It is a Pyrodex product. 75 grains = 4.85 grams.

The bullets I use are typically weigh 225-255 grains. That is ~15-16 grams. The bore of the rifle is 0.54″ (.54 caliber).

The bullet leaves the muzzle at something like 2,000 fps. This works due to confinement and the fact that the bore is both long and narrow. Bottom line is that Pyrodex has lots of power.

4.85 grams of FFFF would cause the firearm to explode. It would be horrific.

BTW, that bullet / pyrodex combination will quickly dispatch an elk, even at 50 yards. DO NOT underestimate this stuff. Be careful with all the above.

75 GRAINS ?? What is that?! One of those Wimpy Girly Guns?! 😯
We have always used 110 grains 8)
And If there aint a big fog bank, after you fire, how do you get any protection from the enemy?

[Author]

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