Relationship with land owners around the north site

[James Russell]

Members and Frends,
after several encounters with land owners that did not go so well I think this is something that needs to be discussed. With both encounters with land owners in the area of the north side the land owners they had had contact with other rocketeers and both of then had bad experiences. The first one I now about and know who the rude and arrogant people were and I think that Art and myself smoothed things out with them some what. With the second land owner I do not know the situation or the people involved but they left a bad taste in his mouth and not sure if I will be able to sooth things over.

All members and attendees represent us as a club and or hobby, we need to treat anyone that we come in contact with, with the utmost respect, it maybe your rocket they find. Any time you cross a fence you may not be on USFS land and you may not be wanted. The land owners are close and talk with each other, one bad experience and they all will know about it. It is not the land owners responsibility to deliver your rocket to the USFS in Grelley so I would recommend not telling them to do that. The guy I am dealing with has found rockets on his property and has just disposed of them or has given then to a ranger that just happened to be in the area before he disposed of it. I the case of my rocket he felt it was worth a little more and was/is thinking of taking it to a sale or something to get money for it. Based on his experience with other rocketeers he is not very understanding and he thinks we are putting his cattle at risk and even his employees/family and vehicles when larger metal rockets with no parachute come down. He said that my rocket cost him over a half a days work because the chute was caught in the fence and spooked the cattle. Right now I am not sure if he is going to give me the my rocket back or if he will make me pay for it before he does. He does not care that I have to drive 2 hours to meet with him, I will have to meet with him on his terms and at his convenience.

I really think that that our relationship with the other land owners should be as important as our relationship with USFS. We all need to be respectful if we go over a fence and even more so when dealing with people when out looking for a rocket. I also know that one of the land owners does not want us on his land without permission, he may even want to escort you as well if you are looking on his land.

Anyone have any thoughts on how we can get a relationship going or improve on what we are doing to keep from causing problems.

[MikeSModerator]

Anything I can do to help.

Also. Please let Us know when the launch starts, where is OK and
not OK. I’m not sure where it starts and ends.

Land owners aways have to fight to keep land. They
want it respected.

PS. I would donate a day to help the land owner do what ever,
If needed

[SCOTT EVANS]

I still think a small gift at Chistmas, thanking them for there hospitality, to the club. Even the one holding your rocket hostage. And allways ask permision to go on thier land.

Or if you have alot of money, you could hire a Lawyer, sue him in District Court, after all, he doesnt own the air space above his land. You could claim he picked your rocket up, on public land, in which the Club has been given permission the fly from. As his Attorney fees mounted (unless his brother is his Lawyer) over a few months, he might become convinced to pay you, to come pick it up! 🙂 I know those Attorney bills, have had an impact my thinking in the past! 🙄 😉

The first part might work better to win the hearts and mines. 😉

Scott e

[Warren B. MusselmanModerator]

I’m liking the idea of either or both:

– Some folks volunteer to help out the adjacent landowners for a day here and there.
– A gift for the landowners surrounding the north site.

I’d vote we don something for good neighbor relations… I’d go up and string fence or whatever.
Maybe a Christmas bottle of Scotch or something.

Warren

[Anonymous]

Warren, that is good counsel. We lost our last launch site – which was SUPERB – because a landowner thought we were “stampeding his cattle”. His allegations were crap, but there you have it. After that experience, I think if we could do something neighborly, that’d go a long ways.

It would be worthwhile to see if the neighbors own the land outright, or if they have leased the grazing rights from the Feds. IF they have the grazing rights (but not the ownership of the land) it is, in most cases, illegal for them to close off the land. In that case, there is no “tresspassing”, per se – it is Federal land. They may feel it is theirs if they pay a grazing fee, but we all own Federal land. I want to emphasize that they may indeed be the landowners, and if so, they can essentially shoot your for crossing the fence 😯 but if they have only leased the grazing rights — exceedingly common for that part of the world — then they are in deep legal trouble if they attempt to keep you off that land. It is very much worth visiting with the USFS on who owns what and where out there.

I grew up on a ranch, speak the talk, know how to brand calves, have the boots 😀 etc. so James, if you could point them out to me, I think I could help you and I’d be glad to do it.

As we all fly higher and drift farther, this will come more and more into play. The last launch site was as good or better than this one, and this one — good as it is — was HARD to find. Lets not biff it.

JW

[James Russell]

well from what one of the land owners told me when you go past the second fence to the north or when you cross the fence to the east you are on private property.

I really think it will be hard to find the land owners because they may not all live there. The guy I talked to today lives north of Nunn and has property in Carr, Nunn and Ault.

I think that what ever we do will set a standard and I do not want to feel we need to pay for every rocket that he finds. I am all for rewarding someone for going out of their way but I do not think it is right of him to hold a rocket as ransom. I really think the thing to do is to try to get them to come out to a launch and we feed them with BBQ or something, kinda like a social. If we can educate them as to what we do and find out what they would like from us. We might come up with a good compromise if we are all given the chance to talk.

[muleParticipant]

I have to deal with a lot of land owners in my line of work.

Each one has their own little pet projects that only a conversation with them will reveal. That in it’s self is time consuming, but a necessary evil sometimes. It is bad to start paying them for right of access, but sometimes you just have to do it. I don’t have time right now to do it, but I can look up land owners and/or get them from the County Accessors office if the legals are known. Most accessors will bend over backwards to help, their jobs aren’t the most exciting and something new is.

Anyway, where I was going with this is that the owners need to be figured out and a couple people from the club make it their goal to get to know them some. I’m not talking having a beer with them, but more like a first name basis – recognition thing. Gifts for their pet projects make a big statement.
I’m getting one landowner in KS a couple deer feeders, he’s into guiding hunts on his land.

Bed time, more later. Wife is standing here……

[SCOTT EVANS]

Bed time, more later. Wife is standing here……

Hey mine does that too….. 🙂

Scotte

[Ed Dawson]

I agree that we need to do all possible to build the understanding and gain the “indifference” of the land owners. I choose that word well as they will most likely never be our friends. I live on property with livestock and neighbors with livestock – I can attest that rocket motors and flapping parachutes scare the animals.

You guys are right to offer help in any way to the locals. We should take a hint from those that ask permission to hunt on private land.

Suing for our airspace will never work. Around my house we get a lot of hot air balloons landing in the fields nearby. The recovery of those really damages the crops in a big way and scares the animals too. This is money out of the owner’s pockets. Ranchers work extremely hard to put on a pound of meat. Making the cows run around will work that right off.

I have a friend that is a cattle rancher just outside of Briggsdale. He, and his two kids, have actually flown with us several times.

My two suggestions are:

1) Like Warren said, offer help, and good cheer.
2) Ask a local rancher what he recommends in working with his neighbors.

As JW says, just my 2Ns worth…

P.S. As a land owner, I would never want to go to a BBQ with the Hot Air Balloonists, but I would greatly appreciate their acknowledgment that their hobby scares my horses and destroys the hay crop. Their feeling of entitlement to trespass really irks me.

[muleParticipant]

Indifference is a good word to use.
Are we dealing with cattle or horses at the north site? I to have been there, grew up on a farm. Horses are the worst at getting spooked, I doubt anyone will make headway with that kind of landowner. My experience w/ the cattle is they think it’s food and have to check it out but don’t like the noise. Curious creatures, king of like kids….. If I may toss this out, I think the landowners in question need to know who we are, how to contact us and when we will be in the area. A good faith gesture like offering to help them probably won’t be wanted unless it’s untrained manual labor. I know that when I work on something I don’t want to have to train someone to help me – fencing or otherwise. That being said, if anyone from here wants to donate some time this summer, I have almost a mile of fencing to do this summer 😛 Sorry, my property is too forested to launch on and a 3 hr drive.

I agree w/ MrEd on his points, especially that – entitlement is not something we have on private land and that needs to be remembered….
I’m wondering out loud here – would it take someone like MrEd talking to these guys to get them to lighten up with the group?

[Author]

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