Level 3 – Need TAPs for my Certification Project

[Bruce R. Schaefer]

Man, I remember that Estes picture! That’s you! Cool! I’m a STK legacy Sun guy who was out in a RIF over a year and a half ago. Listen, I definitely understand your drive. I gave myself a year to do the L3, and there are those who may have said I was pushing it. Regardless of what others think, it’s between you and your TAPs. You’ve already had Art and Conway express interest, even that guy in Iowa. 🙂 They are the ones you have to impress, no one else.

[slipstick]

I’ll look at adding ballast (would sand be a good choice? lead shot? 10 Big Macs?) to the nose cone to see if I can get below 12K.

How about adding a functional payload like a camera? 😉

Doug

Doug, I was thinking along those lines. If you want to suggest a video camera that I can put in it, I’ll do it. I also need to know how you are splitting the optics or mirroring the images.

what fun that would be!

[slipstick]

Well. well, well… I just happen to have an Intimidator 5 sitting out in the garage….

Bruce, would you mind weighing those components for me? The Performance Rocketry documentation has that unaltered kit listed as 13 pounds unloaded, but my Rocksim calculates it out to 32 pounds fully loaded. Somethings not right. I don’t think my avionics, aeropack adaptors, chutes and M1400 weigh 19 pounds.

[Bruce R. Schaefer]

Mike, you just insulted Doug. He uses 16mm FILM, not CCD video. And come MHM Friday Night at the Movies, you will watch his movies with absolute awe; the quality is unsurpassed. Though others use video cameras and will guide you on that. Conway and Art are ones that come to mind.

I come in at 12 pounds and a few ounces with RockSim without a motor. It will vary slightly as you go along. For an N2440, I come in at 32 pounds fully loaded. Trust me, that’s light. My L3 was approximately 50 lbs. fully loaded, and that’s relatively light. Others weigh in about 70 lbs. Mike, wait until you get your components and weigh them yourself. Take others’ measurements into consideration, but do them yourself. Not that I won’t do it.

[Warren B. MusselmanModerator]

Mike, it’s going to be between you and your TAPs. However, be aware that not many TAPs will give you a go ahead at the speed you’re trying to move and TAP-shopping is very seriously frowned upon. Experience is what is respected in this hobby, not getting your L3 quicker than anyone else. It isn’t a competition.

The North site is unavailable until the April launch and even then we require USFS permission. If the site is too wet, we may not get to launch in April – on the other hand we sometimes launch at the North Site in March if conditions are right and USFS is in a good mood. Tripoli Colorado doesn’t launch at Hartsel until late April IF the weather cooperates. To go elsewhere is going to mean Arizona, Kansas or Texas or even further away and you’ll have to get to know the appropriate people and find a TAP who can be involved both BEFORE construction begins AND who can be present to witness the flight. Tall order if you’re not already involved in the local club where you plan to fly.

I know you’re going great guns, but read the Tripoli L3 requirements – Construction CANNOT begin until your TAP signs off on the detailed design documents and data capture. Some TAPs insist one witnessing the bird under construction as you progress. Some barely glance at the bird, but that’s a horrible TAP who should be removed from the role.

The two most experienced TAPs for Colorado are James Russell and John Wilke and Wilke is currently living in Iowa. Art Hoag and Conway are also both excellent TAPs, but live in the Fort Collins area. The other Colorado TAPs I know of have rarely been out to NCR launches and have moved on to other hobbies for the most part.

Good luck to you Mike, but really – take some time to breath and learn about what you’re doing. There is far, far more to this hobby and an L3 cert than building and flying 2 rockets. By the way, if your chute did not deploy, you did NOT qualify for your L2 – at least for Tripoli. NAR is a bit looser on the rules so I’m assuming Joe certified you for NAR and not Tripoli. Tripoli will rescind your cert if they find that the bird did not fly according to predicted flight profile.

Warren

PS: Accidentally exceeding the waiver can shut the club’s waiver down for good. TRA and NAR insurance will not be in effect if the flight exceeds the waiver and this club would very likely lose one of the best waivers in the country. You might have a bunch of guys chasing you with flaming torches and pitchforks if that occured. However, the RSO at the time of your cert attempt will likely refuse your launch if the simmed altitude gets much over 75% of the waiver – at least they should.

[Doug GerrardParticipant]

Doug, I was thinking along those lines. If you want to suggest a video camera that I can put in it, I’ll do it. I also need to know how you are splitting the optics or mirroring the images.

Mike, you just insulted Doug. He uses 16mm FILM, not CCD video.

No offense taken but Bruce is correct, I only shoot film. And no offense intended but it doesn’t take a lot of insight to stick a video camera in a rocket and turn it on before flying. I really not trying to be insulting but I’m just pointing out that if you use a video camera, hook it up to you TV and look at the image to directly adjust the camera, mirror, openings, whatever to get the view you want. It is a lot harder to adjust the various factors described when you don’t have a live image to guide you.

Mike, my preference is to “hang” the camera off the side of the rocket at an angle. It’s draggy so it’s not for altitude attempts but it sounds like you’re wanting to lower your expected altitude. I have used mirrors but then you must use a telephoto lens. By the way, my lightest high speed movie cameras weighs at least 5 pounds and are made out of steel and aluminum so I have weight penalty compared to video cameras. Of course I’ve lawn darted them in and the film survives…

Doug

[Bruce R. Schaefer]

Experience is what is respected in this hobby, not getting your L3 quicker than anyone else. It isn’t a competition.

Mike, Warren’s right; it isn’t a competition. We leave the blood and guts, get-there-first mentality at work. This is an individual journey in a fantastic hobby that encompasses physics, chemistry, biology, etc. At the end of my L3, Conway said, “Look!” It was a horned lizard in the grass; first time I ever saw one out there. The prairie is a beautiful place. This is something Joe Hinton rightfully stresses: HAVE FUN! We celebrate with friends’ failures, successes, and each of us learns from it. If you were to find TAP’s who would “give” you the L3, what would it mean? Without the respect of your peers, it really doesn’t mean anything. I think I have the respect of most of my peers. I will win the rest over in time. John Wilke, JamesR, Conway–who carried my rocket back single-shoulderly, Jon Scuba, Joe Hinton, Art Hoag, Doug, Bob Messner, Mark Lionberger, Ken Plattner, and other friends shook my hand. THAT meant everything to me. When Joe Hinton said his famous words, “Nicely done,” well, that made my day. It was a day that will always be burned into my brain. Although, Art was right when he said that I wouldn’t remember much of it. Ha! Thank goodness Nadine had her camera ready and Dave1 had his camera running! It really was intimidating, but the friends at my side made it fun. It really was a BLAST! I really hope that yours will be!

[SCOTT EVANS]

I take my kids for the launch (thats me). But they find every thing else out there as much and more entertaining. 😉

scott e

[Bruce R. Schaefer]

Very good, Scott. I keep seeing new critters each time I go. I remember Oktoberfest ’05, and at the time I was out looking over the cliffs to the north for the upper section and handmade chute of a failed L1 attempt that went up, up, and away, and I could hear the rockets just blasting off behind me, I spun around, and said to myself, “I’m home!” Ha!

[James Russell]

Mike as I said in my PM I am willing to work with you through the process of getting your L3, lets talk Saturday. I will be there early, 11am but will have to leave early as well.

to add to what everyone else has said. first the Atlas site is limited to K’s do to safe distances. You have been there, the safe distance for a K is about half way to the N/S road and the pad. I am not sure when the last K was flown there but when we did everyone on that end of the parking lot had to move back to the safe distance for the flight, leaving our cars, rockets and all behind to watch the flight.

So based on that launch site February is out.

Mike on your L2, you understanding the requirements for your cert in your opinion did you meet the requirements? If you have not read the requirements you can go to the same links that Conway pointed out re view them and let me know if you have any questions. I was not there and I have not talked to Joe or you so I am not wanting to second guess anyone without the facts.

None of us want to impede you in your quest but I think we all would like to make sure that what every you decide to do you do it safely. We are here to make sure that you can demonstrate the knowledge and skills to design, build, fly and recover a rocket at the highest level. Whether you slow down like some have recommended or if you stay full steam ahead you are not likely to be able to go through the process in as short of time as you would like.

Mike I would really like to talk to you, please give me a call some time this week, I get home after 630pm

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